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The Sword and the Pen

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quote:
Originally posted by sweetness in my lungs:

ooooh. this could really get me going right now... it won't fit in this thread. arrgh. what to do what to do...? hm. I'll post a shortie Smiler

that's not unloving?

Not to god's people, but to the others! I mean...if God created all humans, and love every single one of them unconditionally... then how can he decide to kill some of them and favor just one people? sometimes I feel like it doesn't fit with the picture of god from the new testament. that's all. and if I was as talented as reg I would probably put some of those thoughts into a song Smiler

since god is almighty, I don't know, he could create a wall that the enemy couldn't climb or make the jews invisible or something... idk. killing just seems unnecessary.

so that's why I thought of this when I first heard The Sword and The Pen.

(see how I wrapped it up there in the end? Wink on-topic. yey!)

i'll try to simplify this as much as i can. (i'm no good at that!)

You're suggesting that God should have inconvenienced His faithful followers in order to prolong the existence of His enemies on His earth, right?

But this life isn't all there is; it's the determining common ground that lets us decide where we'll spend eternity: with God, or without Him. If you've made up your mind that you won't follow Him, to the point where you'll pursue His people, I don't understand how death is punishment. You hate God, so i assume you're essentially waiting for Him to banish you from His presence (earth), so that you can be without Him (in the place Jesus called Hell).

Bottom line: God wanted them to be good (as in, not evil. He isn't unreasonable!), so that they could all live happily ever after, but they refused Him. said they were happy without His help. He still wanted them, but they didn't want Him. When they began pursuing His people, He saw fit to send them out of His presence. It wasn't easy, because He did love them. It was easy, because it's established that Hell is the alternative to God, and their existence could not continue any other way.

What would be the point of keeping them on earth, when what they want is to be rid of God from their lives?

Hope that cleared up where i'm coming from Smiler

Also: THIS IS MY 700TH POST!!! Big GrinBig GrinBig GrinBig Grin

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I get you. Hmm. You might think I've been acting like I don't believe in God, but I just really wanted to see how someone else looked at it. I do believe in God and the Bible, but this issue has just bothered me a bit. One of those things that are hard to understand...

some comments though:

"His faithful followers"... They weren't so faithful always, were they? I think most of the people where whiny most of the time...?

And I understand how God could act like that if they all say they hated Him, even though they knew He existed. But this was generations after their forefathers had left their faith. They were raised in a completely different situation. I believe some of the outsiders were better people than some of the followers of God. All kinds of people are everywhere.

And I'm christian, not a Jew. I don't know your religious outlook, but here are some of my thoughts.

I don't know if hell existed back then? they just "went to rest" before Jesus died and made it possible for people to join Him in Heaven, right..?

then death wouldn't be such a punishment... 'cause I believe God stopped punishing people by death after Jesus...

anyway. waaay of topic.

(maybe this isn't something to be discussed on the stix. I don't mind. I think people should be able to believe what they want, but if someone think it's inappropriate...yeah well then I will shut up.)

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yeah, i totally see where you're coming from. I'm a christian, too.

it's not about whether you're a good person, it's about your heart, and attitudes toward God. Yes, His people were whiney and high-maintenece, but that's people. The heathens probably were, too! the reason the heathens weren't favored, though, rests not on their environment, not on their dispositions, but on their obedience to God's laws. Clearly, these people were against God, the very definition of evil. I don't mean evil like they are inhuman; (quite the contrary, every human is evil. it's called sin nature!) i mean they're evil because they chose to pursue God's followers. obviously not making an effort to abide by His rules.

Bottom line, is that it's not about intentions, it's about actions and attitudes. It doesn't matter if these people thought they were doing the world a favor by wiping out God's people.. The very fact that, in reality, they were in direct opposition to God, makes their actions evil. It's not about what you mean, it's about what you do. That's what determines a sin, at least on the outside. Internally, like sinning in your mind, it's not about who gets hurt, it's about the fundamentals of your nature and attitudes.. So yes, "good" people wind up going to hell, and some "bad" people go to heaven. Think about king David: if he did all of that terrible stuff, we'd think we were justified in saying, obviously he doesn't love God, and he's a bad guy. In reality, God called him "a man after [My] own heart".. David was a murderer, an adulturer, and a liar. Still, God loved him dearly and there's no doubt that he's in heaven right now. Meanwhile, from a biblical standpoint, Regina, while a beautiful person in many ways, will go to hell. Not because she's a "bad person", but because she's a human who has outwardly rejected the gift of salvation. The only way she'd go to heaven is if the songs Human of the Year, Baby Jesus, Devil Come to Bethlehem, and others are not truly how she feels... but she's stated that 1. faith is something you're born with, and no one is really wrong. and 2. she fluctuates between beleifs and standpoints. She doesn't subscribe to christianity, and so there's no way that she can enter heaven. i hope against hope that she'll come to Jesus some day.. how amazing would that be? But as it stands, we have reason to think she hasn't, so, at the moment, is not headed for heaven.

But my point is, whether you're a good person has nothing to do with whether you're deseerving of God's punishment.

Also, at the moment, i don't have a scripture referrence about the existence of hell... i think there was heaven, hell, and a plaace called "Jacob's Bosom", the place where all those headed for heaven stayed until Jesus died on the cross. God'sold testament followers weren't sinless, as you pointed out, so there's no way they could go straight to heaven when they died..

I wish there were a way to continue this discussion, if you're still interrested. Might i e mail you?

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quote:
Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

But my point is, whether you're a good person has nothing to do with whether you're deserving of God's punishment.

that's where the " no matter how sweet, no matter how brave" comes in for me in this interpretation.

I have to say though... saying regina is going to hell. I don't like that at all. "I didn't think that that was real polite..." We can't possibly know that. I think people will be surprised about who they meet when they come to Heaven. We don't know what she believes. So I don't think we should speculate in who's going to Heaven and who's not according to the Bible, God or people.

quote:
I wish there were a way to continue this discussion, if you're still interrested. Might i e mail you?

sure. emelilla_@hotmail.com. msn as well.

AND ALICIA

I'm sorry I missed your take on it! Read it just now. (how could I miss it when it's all colorful and stuff...?) I think it makes much sense! Strange, but I actually never thought of the song like her loved one was dying. Now when you say it, I don't know why I couldn't see it. Sometimes you need another point of view Smiler

I was thinking... If Samson is based on a story (imaginative or real) this could be a song about the same situation. 'cause my take on Samson (for the moment) is that her loved one dies. I don't know how much this has been discussed in the Samson thread, but I'm sure you've heard that version before?

You think they could be connected...? Seems like a long shot but maybe.

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^^ I don't think it's a long shot at all. I'd love to here your current understanding of Samson. Nice color useage by the way too Big Grin

I was with my sister in the car today. Oh how I love my sister. And I asked her her take on the song. I had never thought about what she said, but it makes sense to me too.

She said that the sword was todays music, like crappy rap songs and music with no meaning. Just commercial value. Or any other form of art that has been perverted. And the pen was the original, beautiful classical music that no one seems to know anymore. Or other meaningful art. Not everyone can recall it or recite the beautiful poems or composers.

I don't know how the rest comes in but I thought the take on these lines made sense Big Grin

I LOVE YOU COLETTE!

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quote:
Originally posted by Reginaoverdose:

^^ I don't think it's a long shot at all. I'd love to here your current understanding of Samson. Nice color useage by the way too Big Grin

I was with my sister in the car today. Oh how I love my sister. And I asked her her take on the song. I had never thought about what she said, but it makes sense to me too.

She said that the sword was todays music, like crappy rap songs and music with no meaning. Just commercial value. Or any other form of art that has been perverted. And the pen was the original, beautiful classical music that no one seems to know anymore. Or other meaningful art. Not everyone can recall it or recite the beautiful poems or composers.

I don't know how the rest comes in but I thought the take on these lines made sense Big Grin

I LOVE YOU COLETTE!

I posted my take on Samson Smiler

Maybe you can read it and see if you can connect it to the sword and the pen.

Your sister is smart!! Smiler

Yeah "what if the sword kills the pen" means to me that something obscene beats something pure. An illness beats a life. Crappy music beats true art. The dragon beats the brave prince. and so on.

That the pen is sharper than the sword means that you will get further with words and discussions than with war. The narrators thoughts are quite negative: so what if the sword does kill the pen? The big and evil will win over the small and good. There will be war instead of peace...

Ah. I can't think right now.

and the color useage SmilerI try! It's FUN!

and sometimes mysterious...

edit: tell her that colette is a pretty name Smiler

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Wow this thread is pretty incredible. I want to add, but i'm in class and should be paying attention. So maybe later but...

The real reason I came here was to ask, if anyone ever thought this song was kind of Field Below-ish?

I was driving the other day and it hit me like a ton of bricks. They aren't all that similar, but for some reason there's something shared in the softness, the wondering "what ifs," and the portrayl of aching desire.

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^^^^

You are totally right. Both songs is a wish that something wouldn't have happened.

"But you don't live downtown no more, and everything must come and go" (seriously, I must go listen to field below right after this post...amazing lyrics)

"For those who still can recall the desperate colours of fall"

Both songs are talking about the past, but in tSatP there is also a lot of talk about the future... In FB I feel like something has already happened, and in tSatP something is about to.

Both songs are expressing... regret.

?

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