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MusicLover_2007

Death threat against South Park creators about depicting Allah

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Briana you can go ahead and reply to that through YouTube like you suggested if you want to.

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I was worried that we were being kind of intrusive with just the two of us going back and forth (and some input from Rael). I didn't think anyone else was interrested at this point haha i'll reply here, but if anyone wants us to "shut up already" i'd be glad to continue this discussion elsewhere. Smiler

The Acts verse that you quoted is prophetic. It's saying that, upon Jesus' second coming, all who have rejected Him will perish. It's not pretty, but in no way does it condone Christians murdering non-Christians. And again, the one who initializes the murder is God, and if anyone has a right to take life from someone, it is Him.

I could see where you'd think Him hypocritical for forbidding us from doing something He does Himself, but the Bible explains that

1: nobody knows a man's heart except the man and God. And

2:God is the only one with power over who lives and dies, ultimately. This is tricky, because in order for Him to keep a murdered man alive, He'd have to perform a miracle. And if He were to perform a miracle to undo every evil thing we did, then our free will would essentially be negated, because nothing we did would have any impact on the world around us except what God allowed to filter through.

Instead, He chooses to let us do what we choose, so that we won't be His puppets. This way, salvation is actually meaningful, rather than God forcing you to choose Him.

/tangent.

Anyway, i made those points to say, God tells us not to murder others because we don't know what's in their hearts, and if we kill them before they get to know Christ, they will just go to hell. And obviously nobody wants that. So, as if we needed the logic, that's why we aren't supposed to kill.

As for God killing, that's really His call. See, He's held to a different standard than we are. This is only fair because He is omniscient, so He won't make a mistake. He knows just what people mean by their actions and their thoughts. It's not fair for me to kill, because it's none of my business when you leave this earth.

It's wrong for me to take you out too early, because God may still have a plan for your life, or maybe He was working on saving your soul--sending someone to minister to you. If we went around killing people for not already having accepted Jesus (or refusing to live by God's law), then there would be no one left to convert! And, according to the Bible, this fleeting life is here as the grounds for the salvation of as many souls as possible. That's the whole point of everything that we see and know. So, no, killing non-Christians is not condoned.

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The wars were started over Christianity, that means that if Christianity never existed, that war would have never happened.

That's only a valid arguement assuming, again, that the Bible is written by people who wanted to write a book. It was written with human hands, but dictated by God. And anything God has His hand on will never pass away (that's in the Bible). It's not a social commentary, and it's not Aesop's fables. This is a historically accurate record. They even found Noah's Ark, just recently. All the measurements were just the way the Bible reports them. Shocker.

So, no, the world would not be better off without "religion", in the sense of people observing God and His Word. Because religion is not an option or a nuiscance. It's essential to the morality of a nation--when followed correctly.

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They even found Noah's Ark, just recently. All the measurements were just the way the Bible reports them. Shocker.

I would just like to point out that it being the Noah's Ark is apparently debunked.

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in no way does it condone Christians murdering non-Christians.

That verse says that those who refuse to follow Jesus (all non-Christians) must be killed. It is pretty out there with that message too. Are you having a different interpretation of it???

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God tells us not to murder others because we don't know what's in their hearts, and if we kill them before they get to know Christ, they will just go to hell. And obviously nobody wants that. So, as if we needed the logic, that's why we aren't supposed to kill.

Uhhh, in the book of Joshua God commands Israel to slaughter the Canaanites in order to occupy the Promised Land. It was a bloody war of total destruction.

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It was written with human hands, but dictated by God. And anything God has His hand on will never pass away (that's in the Bible). It's not a social commentary, and it's not Aesop's fables. This is a historically accurate record.

I am pretty sure you would not say the same thing about the Quran or any other scripture from any other Religion besides Christianity. Why? Because those scriptures just don't chime in with the faith in which you happen to have been brought up in. There are numerous scientific in-accuracies in The Bible as well, you don't want me to name them. Also, it has been modified, it used to have to be hand copied!

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They even found Noah's Ark, just recently. All the measurements were just the way the Bible reports them.

What? As Raph pointed out, I am sure that is not the case. That would have been huge news. If that did happen Evolution would have been falsified and there would have been a huge change in the scientific community. Evolution is still widely accepted as scientific fact by the vast majority of scientists.

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Because religion is not an option or a nuiscance. It's essential to the morality of a nation--when followed correctly.

Religion is an option, I choose to be an Atheist, as do many millions of other people around the world. It is not essential to the morality of a nation, we most certainly do not get our morals from scripture,(rebuttal?). Japan, which is much more atheist than the U.S-65% agnostic or atheist- has much lower crime rates than the US!

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I'd like to focus on your response to the Noah's ark discovery: You have far too much faith in the scientific community. I saw it on the news: "Noah's ark found. AND! The Titanic was recently discovered in the ocean... blah blah blah". No way scientists would throw away their evolution theory. Especially not for a historically accurate ark--they'd call hoax, or they would keep assuming that the Bible is exaggerating the facts.

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That verse says that those who refuse to follow Jesus (all non-Christians) must be killed. It is pretty out there with that message too. Are you having a different interpretation of it???

No, i must not be making myself clear enough.. God will eventually come and destroy those who deny Him. I repeat: God will be the one to wipe them out. Another way to phrase this is, God knows the day when He will return to the world. On that day, unbelievers will be "killed", or sent to hell. That verse cannot be taken the way you're saying, which is "believers should kill unbelievers". No, we cannot, hence the order not to kill. Murder is a sin. And the only murder worse than that of a baby is that of an unbeliever, because now that person can never know Christ. There's no call for that, during this time alotted to us (before the return your verse refrences).

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Uhhh, in the book of Joshua God commands Israel to slaughter the Canaanites in order to occupy the Promised Land. It was a bloody war of total destruction.

God said the Canaanites were evil. Again i make the point: the people being attacked in the OT were evil. They were evil people who would not hear God's call. In the meantime, His people had been wandering in the desert for 40 years, so maybe it'd be nice for Him to give them someplace to stay? Or do you think they should have stayed in the desert to allow these evil people to continue with their attorcities?

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I am pretty sure you would not say the same thing about the Quran or any other scripture from any other Religion besides Christianity. Why? Because those scriptures just don't chime in with the faith in which you happen to have been brought up in. There are numerous scientific in-accuracies in The Bible as well, you don't want me to name them. Also, it has been modified, it used to have to be hand copied!

The Bible indicates that the earth is round. Guess back in the day, people were told that the Bible had scientific inaccuracies, right? Or how about the fact that it indicates the "highways and byways at the bottom of the oceans"... What did people back then know about the currents on the ocean's bottom? Did they just assume that they were right? These wanderers living in the middle of the desert?

No, i don't believe in the Qaran, but that's because it directly defies the Bible.

Not to mention that people convert to christianity without having been raised in the church. How someone was raised is not a valid explanation of why they believe what they do.

About morality: Atheists don' get to say what is or is not moral, because your worldview doesn't allow for an absolute "right or wrong". You could be a child molester, and still be in the clear. Because you make up what is and is not okay. You can feel free to disagree with his assessment that his behavior is acceptable, but that doesn't mean squat, because he's allowed to believe what he wants, and you have no measuring stick to prove him wrong. It's your word against his.

I'm not saying there's no such thing as a moral, non-religious person. What i'm saying is, you can't really define yourself as moral, since there's really no such thing. You've made it subjective, which essentially means that there is no morality at all. People should be allowed to do whatever they want, without a higher power to be the judge.

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religion is an option, I choose to be an Atheist,

You misunderstand me: religion as a whole is not something that can be right-clicked and deleted off of the face of the earth. It's here to stay, and the only way to definitively define morality. You can think what you want about right and wrong, but i can disagree with you. and in the end it's all just speculation. Religion (God) is the dciding factor of right or wrong.

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You have far too much faith in the scientific community. I saw it on the news: "Noah's ark found. AND! The Titanic was recently discovered in the ocean... blah blah blah". No way scientists would throw away their evolution theory.

What? One of the requirements of a scientific theory is that it has to be falsifiable. Scientists accept Evolutionary Theory for the same reason why they accept Gene Theory, Cell Theory, Quantum Theory, or Relativity Theory....because it is supported by a large amount of observational evidence. And these theories would be discarded if enough new evidence was found to do so. That is most certainly not faith or dogma.

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God will eventually come and destroy those who deny Him. I repeat: God will be the one to wipe them out.

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On that day, unbelievers will be "killed", or sent to hell.

This God of yours is sounding more and more violent the more and more you talk. I am truly amazed at how desensitized Religious people can become to his ways. Your God acts like a bloodthirsty control freak.

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God said the Canaanites were evil. Again i make the point: the people being attacked in the OT were evil. They were evil people who would not hear God's call. In the meantime, His people had been wandering in the desert for 40 years, so maybe it'd be nice for Him to give them someplace to stay? Or do you think they should have stayed in the desert to allow these evil people to continue with their attorcities?

First off, why is an all-powerful God asking humans to do his murdering? He apparently, and you have made this clear as well, has no problem doing it himself.

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The Bible indicates that the earth is round. Guess back in the day, people were told that the Bible had scientific inaccuracies, right? Or how about the fact that it indicates the "highways and byways at the bottom of the oceans"... What did people back then know about the currents on the ocean's bottom? Did they just assume that they were right? These wanderers living in the middle of the desert?

I think it says the Earth is flat. Revelation 7:1-And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Job 38:13-That it might take hold of the ends of earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

It also says the Earth is stable and immovable: Psalm 104:5.

Not to mention Galileo being placed under house arrest by the church for arguing that all celestial bodies don't directly orbit Earth.

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No, i don't believe in the Qaran, but that's because it directly defies the Bible.

And Muslims don't believe in The Bible because it directly defies the Qaran.

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Atheists don' get to say what is or is not moral, because your worldview doesn't allow for an absolute "right or wrong". You could be a child molester, and still be in the clear. Because you make up what is and is not okay. You can feel free to disagree with his assessment that his behavior is acceptable, but that doesn't mean squat, because he's allowed to believe what he wants, and you have no measuring stick to prove him wrong. It's your word against his.

I never said Atheists make up what is right and what is wrong. Where our moral sense comes from is a very interesting question that I would love to explain if you want me to. For now all I am saying is that wherever our moral sense comes from, it most certainly does not come from scripture. This is obvious because societies before Christianity had morals and a moral sense. I know perfectly well that rape, murder, and theft are wrong. I don't need a book to tell me that. These are things that are universally recognized and understood. Something else that is wrong is discrimination towards homosexuals, something which some Christians, and The Bible, have yet to recognize.

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religion as a whole is not something that can be right-clicked and deleted off of the face of the earth. It's here to stay, and the only way to definitively define morality. You can think what you want about right and wrong, but i can disagree with you. and in the end it's all just speculation. Religion (God) is the dciding factor of right or wrong.

I know Religion can't just poof out of existence, it would take time. You do know that Religion is slowly decreasing in the world right? God defines morality? The one who is willing to send over four billion people to hell in this world who are not Christians? The one who agrees that you can be forgiven for rape and murder, but you could devout your life to helping others, never stealing or murdering, and happen to believe in the wrong Religion or be an Atheist and go to hell........I don't think so.

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