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MusicLover_2007

Death threat against South Park creators about depicting Allah

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this is one of the most fascinating things i have pretty much ever read- can you say stalemate? i've decided to chime in...

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Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

You have far too much faith in the scientific community. No way scientists would throw away their evolution theory. Especially not for a historically accurate ark--they'd call hoax, or they would keep assuming that the Bible is exaggerating the facts.

the great flood recorded in the bible is generally accepted to be the same flood recorded in the epic of gilgamesh- it was a particularly devastating flood of mesopotamia, and must have indeed seemed like the "whole world" was underwater. (i'm not sure how literal a stance you are taking, bltwp) but anyway, i just want to throw it out there that an ark of the measurements recorded in the bible could not have possibly held two of EVERY species of animal in the world. maybe two of every animal noah could find at the time?? point being, the discovery of the "real" noah's ark would in no way contradict evolution theory.

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God said the Canaanites were evil. Again i make the point: the people being attacked in the OT were evil. They were evil people who would not hear God's call.

i don't want to offend. but i can't really let this go, it is exactly what brady's argument is saying. can you really classify an entire nation to be evil? meaning every single person living there? this is exactly what the crusaders did- they found islamic society to be "evil," and as a threat to the holy land. yes, another goal of the crusades was power and money, but it started as alarm that the muslims were "defiling" the holy land with their "evil ways." try to justify killing off an entire society all you want, but all i hear is genocide.

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quote:
Originally posted by good > perfect:

the great flood recorded in the bible is generally accepted to be the same flood recorded in the epic of gilgamesh- ... but anyway, i just want to throw it out there that an ark of the measurements recorded in the bible could not have possibly held two of EVERY species of animal in the world. maybe two of every animal noah could find at the time?? point being, the discovery of the "real" noah's ark would in no way contradict evolution theory.

Yes, there are several records of a worldwide flood--in almost every religion, on fact. I'd say this either means that all religions spring from one that puts emphasis on a flood, or that the flood really happened, and has since been accepted as an act of God.

I feel like, if God was going to the trouble of flooding a planet, He'd make the boat (built to order) work for holding all the animals the earth has to offer. Maybe it required a miracle, or maybe we're missing something. I don't think it's fair for us to just knock away parts of scripture because it doesn't seem to match up with what we think, or what we want to hear.

My point about scientists not liking the ark is that it gives solid support for the validity of the Bible--it makes it that much more difficult for people to pass it off as a story book.

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i don't want to offend. but i can't really let this go, it is exactly what brady's argument is saying. can you really classify an entire nation to be evil? meaning every single person living there?

Can I? No, i personally cannot take a good look at a nation and decide that every member of the nation is evil. But see, that's not what i'm saying. I'm saying that God, who is all-knowing, is in the only position to judge an entire nation so harshly. He knows when you deserve mercy, and He knows when you have turned your heart against Him. Therefore, when He says in His word that an entire nation was evil and deserving of mass murder, i believe Him. I certainly don't know better than He does what an ancient people was deserving of.

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this is exactly what the crusaders did- they found islamic society to be "evil," and as a threat to the holy land. yes, another goal of the crusades was power and money, but it started as alarm that the muslims were "defiling" the holy land with their "evil ways."

Ever heard the phrase "trying to play God"? That's what the crusaders did. They took action that was not theirs to take. The only reason God is allowed to make that decision is because He does know their hearts, and therefore is in the only position that allows murder. The crusaders are not God. They are human, and, as is written in the Bible, men cannot know each other's hearts. It is not my place to attack you because i, in my ignorance, have randomly decided that you were "evil". The crusaders were wrong. Period. There is nothing in the Bible to support their actions. I don't support their actions, and God doesn't, either.

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try to justify killing off an entire society all you want, but all i hear is genocide.

Genocide against a nation that an all-knowing God declared to be evil. Not one man being killed by another. Do you understand the distinction?

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Brady:

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What? One of the requirements of a scientific theory is that it has to be falsifiable. Scientists accept Evolutionary Theory for the same reason why they accept Gene Theory, Cell Theory, Quantum Theory, or Relativity Theory....because it is supported by a large amount of observational evidence. And these theories would be discarded if enough new evidence was found to do so. That is most certainly not faith or dogma.

I've seen several interviews with scientists who say that they only believe in the evolutional theory because they've spent their entire lives on it. Some have said that there is actually more support for an intelligent god, but they keep on with evolution because that's what they've believed for so long, and they refuse to throw away their entire belief system.

I don't think that all evolutionists are in denial, but i do want to point out that there is solid support coming from educated, former "evolutionists" for God.

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This God of yours is sounding more and more violent the more and more you talk. I am truly amazed at how desensitized Religious people can become to his ways. Your God acts like a bloodthirsty control freak.

I agree that it's bad that these things had to happen, but understand that God is not the one to blame. If He created us in His image, if He painfully slaughtered a part of Himself to save us, just what do you think it takes to drive Him to these rash actions? Now, i've seen with my own eyes pretty good proof that people don't get it right (world trade center, nazism, thievery...). nothing to imply that people aren't capable of becoming bad enough that God has to step in and stop them by force. So i'm reluctant to call God a "control freak"... Do i need to point out once again what specifies a nation as "evil in God's sight"? You have yet directly replied to that...

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First off, why is an all-powerful God asking humans to do his murdering? He apparently, and you have made this clear as well, has no problem doing it himself.

Telling His people (people who follow His command) to kill is exactly like doing it Himself... There's no distinction.

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Four corners of the earth

Isaiah 40:22

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in..."

Circle can mean sphere in the original language.

"stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain"

The universe is expanding.

This is more specific than "corners of the earth", because the earth is divided into "corners" geographically. Not literally.

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And Muslims don't believe in The Bible because it directly defies the Qaran.

My point was that anything that defies the Bible is wrong. Muslims can have that opinion of their holy book if they want to, but i have objectie support for my beliefs, which is why i don't believe in anything that defies it. Make sense?

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I never said Atheists make up what is right and what is wrong. Where our moral sense comes from is a very interesting question that I would love to explain if you want me to. For now all I am saying is that wherever our moral sense comes from, it most certainly does not come from scripture.

I'd like to hear your opinion, if you're happy to share it. Smiler

My point about atheists' morality is that it's always subjective. and subjective things are not factual. If it's not factual, then you have no right to expect someone else to live by it. Everyone, therefore is free to live exactly how they personally see fit. By and large, this isn't a problem, and life goes on. Maybe on a small scale, insignificant things are "anybody's guess", like whether you're justified in going off on a jerky person... some people say you should always be kind, and others say you should only be kind to people who are kind to others. But where's the line? Who's to say that murdering an unfaithful spouse is really all that wrong? Even if we all can agree that it's bad, where's the proof? Is it okay for us to condemn a murderer? What if a jugde rules that it's okay--everyone messes up sometime. I hope that made sense...

I'm not saying that people without scripture don't have morals. I do think that, with or without scripture, we all get it at least a little bit wrong. Anyway, my point is that, regardless of what your morals are, they are meaningless without a higher, more informed power to justify why you think what you do. otherwise it's just your opinion, and nobody else should bother to acknowledge that.

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quote:
Something else that is wrong is discrimination towards homosexuals, something which some Christians, and The Bible, have yet to recognize.

That last post was getting really long, and this is really an unrelated issue. But, here goes:

The same god who says "murder is wrong" and "don't sleep with a woman and her mother" and "don't molest kids" says, "gay sex is an abomination" (no offense to anyone!)

I can understand where you're coming from, and i want to apologize right now on the part of all christians for the intolerance, the discrimination, the hate. This is unacceptable, and disgusting. I personally have nothing against gay people. I'm not somehow better than them, (in my opinion, as well as God's) and it's not fair for people to say that anyone is.

It's not like these people woke up one day and said, "know what i'm gonna do today? Tick God off, and entirely defy Him." That's just not the case.

My standpoint is, God tells us not to do a lot of things that we "can't help" (even though we can). Don't have sex until you're married. Obviously plenty of people don't follow that command, yet the "church" hasn't shown up on their doorsteps with torches and pitchforks. They've taken it upon themselves to pick on gays. I don't know why--they haven't hurt anyone, and it's not like they're threatening anyone.

Yeah, God says it's wrong, and, while i don't think we should take that lightly, i don't see why people are going out of their way to personally attack people who, by a majority, don't even believe in the god who condemns their behavior. That's like someone believing in a god who has a problem with someone liking music, and those people proceeding to try to tell me to stop listening... Believe what you want, but do not impose your beliefs on me!

Is gay sex wrong? Yes. (says the God who created us. Who backs up your standpoint, Brady? Yourself, your parents, maybe, or perhaps your friends. So what? homophobes disagree, and so you have no more right to claim you're right than a homophobe.) So we (the church) should act as a support system for /Christians/ who are struggling to live by God's word, and are gay. Just like we should be supportive of liars, and unfaithful spuoses, and every other person who wants to live by God's word. Regardless of their affliction(s).

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You know what else God says is wrong? Eating shellfish or pork. And yet many, many Christians do that. And eating shellfish and pork is a choice. Sexual orientation isn't.

Until the Christians start following every other nit-picking detail in the bible, I refuse to believe that homosexuality is a sin. Who cares what parts we have? Love is love.

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First of all, i'm sorry if i've offended you. i'm only stating what i believe to be true!

Second, Christians don't have to follow a lot of those so-called "nit-picking laws", according to Jesus. In fact, Paul refutes Peter (the first pope) in the Bible for trying to make new believers follow the old Jewish law.

Thirdly, and most importantly, Christian action does not, under any circumstance, define what is or is not a sin.

Every Christian could commit every sin in the Bible (and indeed, collectively, we do), and that would not change what sin is.

God defines sin. Therefore, Christians cannot change it. So you're right, Christians have no right to pick on homosexuals. Just understand that God defines what is wrong or right, not christians. We're all pretty screwed up. Smiler

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quote:
Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

I feel like, if God was going to the trouble of flooding a planet, He'd make the boat (built to order) work for holding all the animals the earth has to offer. Maybe it required a miracle, or maybe we're missing something.

first off, i don't think there is anyone out there (maybe some crazies, who knows) who believes that the entire bible is false. i don't know what you mean about "scientists not liking the ark," the old testament is basically a history of the jewish people. of course science doesn't take a lot of it literally, but there is little debate about whether the events actually happened. especially since the events are often corroborated by other cultures' histories. it is extremely easy to believe the story of the flood if you replace "world" with "mesopotamia." and then, even the measurements of the ship start to make sense. hey, i'm totes on your side with this one! (side note: the ark was made of wood, yes? then it probs will not be found unless it was somehow fossilized...)

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Genocide against a nation that an all-knowing God declared to be evil. Not one man being killed by another. Do you understand the distinction?

hmmmm....let's agree to disagree on this one. i don't care if they were sacrificing babies- since you keep mentioning it, do you have any documentation (besides the bible) of this society doing that? and what society are you referring to, anyway?

but i don't know what you expect me to say-

"oh, they sacrificed babies? that changes everything. let's kill them all!" the aztecs sacrificed their own people quite regularly, but that doesn't mean i support the conquistadors who wiped them out.

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^^Agreeing to disagree sounds good.. dunno if i'll ever be on the same page with someone who "doesn't care that they were sacrificing babies" :/ i guess it's the same for you making peace with the idea of a god who will wipe them out for it Smiler

About the validity of the Bible, i've spoken with a lot of people who simply don't think the Bible is valid. It's either stories, or it's general BS. Just saying. (How does wood fare at the bottom of the ocean? And i believe i did hear something about fossilization, but don't quote me on it!)

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So...I know I'm not contributing to the discussion, but like Raph, I'm finding this interesting. Smiler I tend to agree with Briana because I'm Catholic (not a hardcore Catholic, but I have my beliefs), and I'm tired of the radical Christians who make us all look bad. Aside from that, I have nothing to add.

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