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MusicLover_2007

Death threat against South Park creators about depicting Allah

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quote:
I've seen several interviews with scientists who say that they only believe in the evolutional theory because they've spent their entire lives on it. Some have said that there is actually more support for an intelligent god, but they keep on with evolution because that's what they've believed for so long, and they refuse to throw away their entire belief system.

I don't think that all evolutionists are in denial, but i do want to point out that there is solid support coming from educated, former "evolutionists" for God.

I know there are few scientists who are skeptical about Evolution and advocate Intelligent Design......Oh my, trust me, they are flat out clowns in the scientific community. I'm not surprised one bit, I mean, they are trying to contend with something that is one of the five backbones/unifying principles of Biology! Evolution isn't a belief system. That's like saying Gene Theory is a belief system.

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I agree that it's bad that these things had to happen, but understand that God is not the one to blame. If He created us in His image, if He painfully slaughtered a part of Himself to save us, just what do you think it takes to drive Him to these rash actions? Now, i've seen with my own eyes pretty good proof that people don't get it right (world trade center, nazism, thievery...). nothing to imply that people aren't capable of becoming bad enough that God has to step in and stop them by force.

I really wish God hadn't gotten lazy and stopped stepping in.

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Telling His people (people who follow His command) to kill is exactly like doing it Himself... There's no distinction.

So there are two equivalent choices? So somedays he felt like doing it himself and somedays he felt kinda lazy and told his kids to do it? I really don't understand that at all.

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Isaiah 40:22

"It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth"

Again, The Bible is all over the place, some verses say it is round, and some say it is flat.

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"stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain"

The universe is expanding.

Yes, the Universe is expanding. But as the Universe expands everything is moving away from each other. The Bible says the Earth is stable and immovable, I do believe it says that about the stars too.

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My point was that anything that defies the Bible is wrong. Muslims can have that opinion of their holy book if they want to, but i have objectie support for my beliefs, which is why i don't believe in anything that defies it. Make sense?

Muslims say that anything that defies the Qaran is wrong. They also say that they have objective support for their beliefs as well. All it is is people from different religions shouting at each other, "Christian to Muslim, "Your wrong!" Muslim to Christian, "Nuh-uh your wrong!"

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I'd like to hear your opinion, if you're happy to share it.

The origins of our moral sense is a very interesting thing indeed!

Natural selection can easily explain things like sexual lust, hunger, fear, and pain, all of which contribute to the survival of our species, and I think that our moral sense is rooted in our Darwinian past as well. Please allow me to explain.

Bees, wasps, ants, and certain vertebrates such as naked mole rats, meerkats, and woodpeckers, have evolved societies in which elder siblings care for younger siblings (with whom they are likely to share the genes for doing the caring) Studies have shown that animals tend to care for, defend, share resources with, and warn of danger for close kin.

The other main type of altruism that we have a well worked-out Darwinian rationale is reciprocal altruism. Which basically means you scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

When the human race was young we lived in packs, or roving bands. Which meant that that the people who we met back then were people whom we were likely to meet again and again throughout our lives which put them in a place to reciprocate moral actions, the basics like not murdering, caring for one another, basically whatever you would want done to to/for you.

This provides the obvious reason for our ancestors to be good to one another in the past to further the survival of our species.

Now I am sure you understand how Darwinism can account for morality on the level of close kin, but how does it account for being good to total strangers?

What I find interesting is that when I see an unfortunate person on the street I feel a strong desire to help him or her. The right way to explain this lust/desire that I and MANY other humans feel would be to call it a Darwinian miss-fire.

Remember what I said about humanity's early days. Through years of living in that type of lifestyle natural selection has implanted a desire/lust to be good in our brains from our past which was: be good to everyone you meet, because everyone you meet is someone whom you are likely to meet again and again throughout your life.

Now, humanity has moved on, and the people we meet are total strangers, but that desire to be good that was implanted in our brains from our past is still with us today.

The equivalent miss-fire we see today is sexual lust. Even though we use contraceptives and are not actually furthering the survival of our species that lust that was honed in our darwinian past is still with us today. The equivalent to that is humans being moral to one another.

That is what I think is the origin of our raw moral sense. Now obviously, our more complex morals have been shaped and molded from culture and societies but our raw moral sense, is rooted in our darwinian past.

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quote:
I really wish God hadn't gotten lazy and stopped stepping in.

I apologize for posting that, it was totally irrelevant to our discussion.

I am gonna go along with good>perfect. I think his or her comparison with the Aztecs and Spain is a great point. But when it comes to this part of the discussion I agree that we will to agree to disagree.

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^^No worries! i'm sure i'll throw out random things one of these days too Smiler Hopefully you'll be as forgiving. Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Brady:

Oh my, trust me, they are flat out clowns in the scientific community.

So, you're defending the supposedly objective attitudes of people who would make "clowns" of those who choose to even acknowledge the possibility that the popular theory might be wrong?

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I'm not surprised one bit, I mean, they are trying to contend with something that is one of the five backbones/unifying principles of Biology! Evolution isn't a belief system.

Oh, well, if it's been put in a list by the people who believe it...

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That's like saying Gene Theory is a belief system.

It is when the people who believe in its validity refuse to acknowledge that they could be wrong. I'm not saying there's no reason to believe in evolution. I'm saying there is too much faith put in its factual, historical accuracy for it to qualify as "scientific" anymore. (i may have to rephrase this later. Red Face)

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Again, The Bible is all over the place, some verses say it is round, and some say it is flat.

Um, no, the Bible is in one place, and you are taking it out of context. The earth is stated to be physically round, and the "corners" are points of geographical reference. God doesn't say the earth is a square or rectangle, he says it is a circle, or a sphere. The corners do not refer to the shape of the globe. Understand?

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Yes, the Universe is expanding. But as the Universe expands everything is moving away from each other. The Bible says the Earth is stable and immovable, I do believe it says that about the stars too.

I'm sorry... i've just provided support for Einstein's theory of general relativity... from the Bible. Nothing for that? Maybe we can acknowledge that whoever wrote it was(/is) really, really smart. Can we agree on that?

Anyway, the word "immovable" in the verse i assume you're talking about doesn't refer to the earth's location, or its rotation/tilt. "The Lord reigneth, He is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, ... He hath girded Himself: the world also is established, that it cannot be moved."

From the context, the earth is refered to in the same terms as God Himself. In this and other cases, when He says He is immovable, He's refering to the state of His heart, or His opinions, or His reasoning. In short, the way that He operates is unchangeable. God is constant, in a way predictable. In the same way, the world around us is set. We cannot change the way it /operates/. This especially makes sense considering, like i've already pointed out, God expressly says that the heavens are ever-expanding... your interpretation is blatantly defied by another verse, also from the old testament. Mine is not defied by anything in the Bible, or in science.

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Muslims say that anything that defies the Qaran is wrong. They also say that they have objective support for their beliefs as well. All it is is people from different religions shouting at each other, "Christian to Muslim, "Your wrong!" Muslim to Christian, "Nuh-uh your wrong!"

Actually, Muslims don't bother shouting at Christians because they believe that they can support the Qaran as well as the bible (impossible)... But i think i know what you mean-- you think nobody can really be right, because we all think we're right. But that's bad logic-- something is right, regardless of how many people disagree with it. Our beliefs change nothing about the facts.

That said, Muslims have fatal flaws in their beliefs because Muhammad is supposedly from the same God as Jesus, yet he belittled Jesus, claiming that "He wasn't the son of God after all. He was just a prophet. Like me!" God, like i've already said, is constant. He won't defy Himself by sending two prophets who defy each other. I'm not trying to offend anyone, or knock anyone's way of life, but i do want you to understand that i believe what i do for distinct reasons. Further, if i were presented with irrefutable proof that i was wrong, /i would change my beliefs/. I believe what i believe because it makes the most sense to me, explains things that other belief systems (including evolution) cannot explain, and does not defy itself. And its premise is nowhere as far-fetched as that of evolution.

Your explanation of morality (pretty much what i expected) essentially claimed that you feel and believe the way you do because in the past it has benefitted our species. (Which i agree with--indeed, it has benefitted mankind to behave morally Smiler) BUT. This leaves much to be desired. We can dispute in circles whether God gave us a sense or morals, or if they evolved. In the meantime, there's a fundamental aspect of your logic that seems to be missing: it's a fact that different people have different moral senses. Now what?

Without a third party (who would have to be, essentially, all-knowing), no one has the right to be right. Nobody can be proven wrong. And you have no right to tell someone else that their beliefs are wrong. Because, according to you, it's all just speculation. There is no such thing as "right" and "wrong" -- it's an illusion created by our genes.

again, i'm not saying atheists aren't moral. They can/do know morality. But you cannot assert that your morals are good or correct when there doesn't exist a factual set/list of proper conduct to which your morals can be held (which would further have to be provided by one who understands morality pefectly, so that their logic could not be disputed. (Especially by people who disagree because their DNA tells them to...).

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quote:
the aztecs sacrificed their own people quite regularly, but that doesn't mean i support the conquistadors who wiped them out.

Just took a second look at this... you're missing my point in the same way that Brady was: God wiping out a people is justifiable, because, even as He understood their hearts, their intentions, their daily interactions, and tried to reach out to them, they turned away. After this, they left Him no choice. People just can't go on living that way.

I don't condone nations wiping out nations any more than you do! I'm all about live and let live.

Just understand that God is, too, as long as everyone isn't going crazy... who's going to handle that? Human sacrifice isn't a choice people can make for themselves. Why do you condone people killing people who have no doubt wronged others, but hate God for turning on them what they've been doing to other people?

Do you get mad at the government for executing serial killers? If so, then why? Well, it's the same, but God has the best polygraph test/psychological workup possible.

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quote:
Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

Do you get mad at the government for executing serial killers? If so, then why?

Actually, yes- i am indeed anti-death penalty. i have always considered that to be one of the most backwards elements of our society. most of europe, and really, most industrialized societies have already disbanded the practice, but the good ol' US hasn't, putting us in such great company with communist states and islamic theocracies.

if you know someone has murdered, does that give you the right to murder them in turn? i don't know, i guess that is something that has never made sense to me in the slightest. life in prison should suffice to do the same job, yes? and states that still practice the death penalty actually have higher crime rates- so there is really nothing to be said of "preventative" punishment.

so anyway, back on topic- i understand what you're saying about god being all knowing etc etc... but i guess i will just sum up how i feel by saying that i am anti-death penalty, be it by the government OR by god.

"what if the god kills the man

and if he does it with love

well then its death from above

but a death from above is still a death..."

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^^true that. i however, have no way of knowing whether god is perfect or not, seeing how my belief system is based on good design principles.

all i know is that the gods of design would NEVER kill anyone...unless they used comic sans too often, of course.

Wink

hehe i quite enjoy this discussion, guys. Smiler

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haha, sorry, it is not really a belief system or a religion of any sort- just my sarcastic sense of humor again.

see, i am a graphic designer- currently a junior in college, actually. and we always joke that the design principles that are drilled into us every waking moment are taken so seriously they start to sound like some sort of religious mantra. and they pretty much invade your entire life!

for example: i took a stupid stupid stress management class this semester (it counted for gym credit, actually lmao) and one day my professor handed out a sheet of paper to everyone. it was supposed to test whether you are an optimist or pessimist. on it was written "OPPORTUNITYISNOWHERE." some people thought it said "opportunity is now here" and others thought it said "opportunity is nowhere."

my response? all i could think was "wow, that is BAD kerning!" (kerning is a term that refers to the spacing between letters) it is kind of extreme the way art school changes the way you see everyday things.

[/tangent] Razzer

my real belief system on the other hand...well, i guess to sum it up i would be agnostic on the verge of atheist. the reason i have trouble crossing over into the atheist camp- well, i really do believe in the power of art and design, not just visual art, but music and dance and what have you. i believe that art communicates on a higher level somehow, and that doesn't flow very well with hardcore atheists.

ps: this was longer than i thought and i sound like a hipster. crap. Roll Eyes

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