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MusicLover_2007

Death threat against South Park creators about depicting Allah

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So, you're defending the supposedly objective attitudes of people who would make "clowns" of those who choose to even acknowledge the possibility that the popular theory might be wrong?

Yes, they are contending with facts. If someone stood up and tried to contend with Einstein's Theory of Relativity, which has been confirmed by a wide range of evidence for a while now, I would laugh. The same goes for Evolutionary Theory which has even more evidence supporting it than The Theory of Relativity. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, life has been around on this planet for 3.8 billion years. If we combine Earth's history into a 24-hour clock humans have only been around for thirty seconds! Life has changed through this 3.8 billion years. This is fact, Evolution by natural selection is just the model/theory that describes how life changes. If someone in the scientific community tried to contend with a well established scientific fact like that I would laugh at them too. Especially if they have any education at all in the field of biology, or any branch of science for that matter.

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Oh, well, if it's been put in a list by the people who believe it...

I don't like it when people say "believe" when it comes to Evolution. It is not a doctrine or belief. It is a well establised scientific fact. You don't seem to be saying that about any of the other backbones of Biology, just Evolution because it happens to contridict your holy book.

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It is when the people who believe in its validity refuse to acknowledge that they could be wrong.

Again, people are contending with facts. Also again, why arn't you criticizing scientists like that about any other well established scientific theories/facts? Like Quantum Theory?

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I'm saying there is too much faith put in its factual, historical accuracy for it to qualify as "scientific" anymore.

Last time I checked there isn't any faith involved in believing in the fossil record.

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I'm sorry... i've just provided support for Einstein's theory of general relativity... from the Bible.

I fully accept that The Bible has scientific facts in it! So does the Qaran....I also accept that the both have numerous scientific flaws in it too.

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From the context, the earth is refered to in the same terms as God Himself. In this and other cases, when He says He is immovable, He's refering to the state of His heart.

This is why I usually don't debate with Christians on biblical grounds. Because then they will just pull a different interpertation of the verse out of the air.

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And its premise is nowhere as far-fetched as that of evolution.

Could you elaborate on that please? I would love to hear your opinion on why you think Evolution is "far fetched". Smiler

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it's a fact that different people have different moral senses. Now what?

There are things that everyone agrees is wrong like killing or not treating others the way you would like to be treated. All I said is that Evolution accounts for our raw moral sense. Culture and society shaped and created our more complex morals.

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when there doesn't exist a factual set/list of proper conduct to which your morals can be held

I completely agree with that argument, but only when it comes to complex morals. Not when it comes to simple things like murder, rape, and helping out others.

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Gay sex is wrong

I totally agree with Ezra pound on that matter. I am straight when it comes to sexuality. But I am a very strong supporter of gay rights.

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quote:
the aztecs sacrificed their own people quite regularly, but that doesn't mean i support the conquistadors who wiped them out.

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Just understand that God is, too, as long as everyone isn't going crazy... who's going to handle that? Human sacrifice isn't a choice people can make for themselves. Why do you condone people killing people who have no doubt wronged others, but hate God for turning on them what they've been doing to other people?

The Aztecs sacrificed their people to please their God(s). That doesn't make it right, but they didn't know anything about Christianity and your God. I'm sure the average Aztec citizen dreaded the possibility that they could be sacrificed. So, they didn't really turn away from God. God didn't punish them by sending Conquistadors. The Conquistadors invaded their land and killed the Aztec people for the advancement of their own nation.

I don't believe that the world is so black and white that God can decide which nations are evil and worthy of destruction. I think a lot of hate has come from this idea. I'm not saying you're all Westboro church or anything, but this kind of thinking is what drives them.. It makes them think they have a right to hate. Maybe it's not your God's intention, but the words from his book sure do get twisted.

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my real belief system on the other hand...well, i guess to sum it up i would be agnostic on the verge of atheist. the reason i have trouble crossing over into the atheist camp- well, i really do believe in the power of art and design, not just visual art, but music and dance and what have you. i believe that art communicates on a higher level somehow, and that doesn't flow very well with hardcore atheists.

and I feel the same way..

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^^bum bum bum, i just thought i would inform you that we may or may not be the same person right now. 10,000 points for being awesome.

Big Grin

EDIT: cool, brady- three cheers for art nerds! (ok, maybe i'm the only nerd, but still!)

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quote:
i believe that art communicates on a higher level somehow, and that doesn't flow very well with hardcore atheists.

Even as a very devout Atheist I have no problem with art at all. My father is a professional photographer and I love his stuff. Also, despite the Universe being utter chaos I can look at star nebulae, which was created from collapsing stars, and be in awe at how such beauty can be created from something like a star running out of full and collapsing. Art flows perfectly well with me, and I am probably as Atheist as you can get.

Oh and my beliefs......I used to be a Christian, then converted to weak atheism after I started studying a-lot of science in early 2008. Then I converted to a form of deism in July of 2009, then more recently, to hardcore atheism after intense reading on the subject. That conversion's greatest influence was probably "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins, great book.

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Of all the art I've seen, Music hits me the most. I can't even describe it (although I'm sure most of you know Wink).

My beliefs are in the category of Agnostic Theist; I do not, nor do I claim to, know that an intelligent higher power exists, but I believe one does.

I have come to my conclusions through my own subjective observations of this world, factoring in its consistencies and its inconsistencies.

I would also like to add that I strongly believe in Ghosts and the after-life. Wink

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well, considering we're all fairly dedicated fans of Regina, i doubt that anyone on these boards will contest your claim about the power of music/art Smiler

Brady--I say Evolution is far-fetched because of the simple fact that, according to the information available, something came from nothing. According to Atheists, what we observe now is all there is, since there is no intelligent creator to set it in motion. You like to jump into the timeline at the big bang. But what started it? Time and space came about at the big bang. So how could it have happened without a cause that does not rely on time or space? Impossible. So maybe you don't like the God of the bible. But, as it stands, you cannot account for the big bang's... bang (or all the bangs that came before it--test runs that came before this life, and apparently we can assume will continue after we implode [or whatever]). explosions don't just initiate themselves.

About Christians making up answers: i find this offensive, and a general stereotype that, while no doubt true of some people (many?), is simply not your call. See, you've taken scriptures out of context, and then accepted your interpretation as fact. So, rather than listening to someone else's take on the verse, you plug your ears and say "see? this is why christians make bad debators!". Was i wrong in what i said? or has it just been your experience that, rather than admitting you had a point, or that they simply didn't know, someone made up an answer for you? (dangerous, since, as believers, we're presenting what God says--not a topic to BS about!) My point is, please don't accuse me of pulling answers out of the air. I don't do that. If i believed your interpretation of that verse, i'd say so. Not to mention it didn't fit with the original context.

So, back it up. the bible presents scientific facts that, thousands of years after the fact, we are discovering to be true. Can you explain this from your perspective, please? If not, then i suppose it would be silly to entirely reject the scientific information presented in the bible. The earth is round, the earth came into being suddenly, caused by a source that is independant of time, etc., the universe is expanding, there are roads and avenues in the oceans.. can you explain this? how did these people know?

About the Aztecs: i minced words. I'm going to back it up to say, it's not my place to announce that their being taken over was an act of god. i'm sorry if i implied that. i didn't mean to, and i don't believe it's true. i don't think the fall of every nation is a result of sin. maybe some are, but i'm no prophetess... that's between that nation and god. again, not my call.

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I don't believe that the world is so black and white that God can decide which nations are evil and worthy of destruction. I think a lot of hate has come from this idea.

I belive the world is exactly that black and white in God's eyes. He's a god of order and of fairness. It's not so easy for people to see things the way He does, as we are living on earth, and our logic is flawed and confused and backwards half the time. And from that, we get hateful christians. i hope i am not one, and never will be, because it's self-contradictory. Christ was all about love, and He was perfect. obviously i have no right to assume myself to be above another, no matter what they do (a stance i suppose an atheist cannot take, since their own personal morality is, in their eyes, perfect)

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There are things that everyone agrees is wrong like killing or not treating others the way you would like to be treated. All I said is that Evolution accounts for our raw moral sense. Culture and society shaped and created our more complex morals.

If this were the case, then how do yuo account for people who kill without remorse? I'm not talking about religious fanatics or people wh othink they're receiving some reward for their actions.

You have a shaky worldview that could topple as soon as you experience a person, sane and rational, who contradicts these "raw moral senses"--unless you're able to adjust what this term means? Does raw moral sense evolve? is there a right or wrong? or only opinions?

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Brady, i'm gonna make this real plain. i don't mean to be condescending, but i don't want to mince words. See, i think you're dead wrong about something. So no offense, okay? Smiler

Every scientific theory that is widely accepted today sounded clown-worthy when it was proposed. No? Not every theory? Okay, well, one of them. We only need one.

The earth was flat. FACT. people weren't allowed to sail too far, or the sea monsters would get 'em, or they'd fall off of the globe. Whichever came first. Then this guy comes along and goes, "hey wait. nope, the earth is round, after all, guys! we had it wrong. Whoops." And he was killed? or ridiculed.... he was a clown, Brady.

The clown was right.

We went on for x-number of years claiming that the earth was flat. Maybe every once in a while, scientists made jokes to each other about the guy who thought it was round. "What a screwball", they probably said.

So, time went on, and apparently our moral sense evolved enough that killing people wasn't the best way to deal with silly scientific propositions, after all (Whoops.)

Instead, we make fun of them to their faces.

Now, i don't have a phd, or even a bachelors just yet... But, question:

If scientists are so obvective ("the scientific method", it's sometimes called), if inherent in a theory is, as you say, the ability to be proven wrong, why do we still

after all these years

make fun of people who propose silly scientific theories?

are you a scientist, brady? You said you'd laugh at out-of-the-box thinkers, too. If you're not a scientist, you're free to laugh.

if you are, then you're not.

There's nothing in the scientific method, community, or objective that could condone mockary. Especially on the grounds that the new idea is in opposition to the popular one.

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quote:

since their own personal morality is, in their eyes, perfect)

false. as you have already argued, atheism is pretty much entirely subjective in terms of morals. our morals are a result of our upbringing and the society we live in. there is no such thing as perfection in atheism, since atheists do not, for one thing, believe the world is that "black and white."

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...we all have perfect raw moral sense.

i feel we are confusing the meaning of the word morals. just because we have morals bred into us doesn't mean we have to use them. there is indeed such a thing as immorality. all brady was trying to say is that our modern morals result from a mixture of primitive instincts and modern culture and society.

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^^i adjusted that last part-- it was really sarcastic, and didn't convey what i wanted to say.

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false. as you have already argued, atheism is pretty much entirely subjective in terms of morals. our morals are a result of our upbringing and the society we live in. there is no such thing as perfection in atheism, since atheists do not, for one thing, believe the world is that "black and white."

you're saying atheists cannot say that there is a right or wrong?

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