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marjerina

PROP 8 OVERRULED!

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Oh wait, haha, I just noticed that part up there. I'm not getting into this dead-end debate, except to point out...

Dude, you realize that today's Christianity is Pauline Christianity, not Jesus's Christianity, yeah? Jesus was not the founder of Christianity as we know it today. Most of the New Testament doesn't even concern the historical Jesus, while the main influence is the Apostle Paul, and through the church he founded at Ephesus a Greek convert named John. Paul never met Jesus in the flesh, he only claimed some strange vision and proceeded to paganize the teachings of Jesus (who preached an enlightened form of Judaism), until he created Pauline Christianity.

While Jesus is regarded by Christians as the founder of the faith, Paul's role in defining Christianity cannot be ignored before drawing conclusions. The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching or influence of Paul, a Pharisee who rejected his Pharisaic Judaism. His worship was that of a "Christ" totally unrelated to the Jewish Messiah, a nationalist (and human) figure that was supposed to free the nation from foreign (Roman) rule. Paul would later be placed over his Jewish-Christian rivals by a Gnostic heretic named Marcion. The Church in its struggles with both Marcion and other fellow Gnostics was forced to define itself and launch an internal war to silence opponents.

Paul totally pulled a Deus Ex Machina on Jesus's teachings by claiming he had "divine knowledge" of God's will (which is such a dubious claim). I don't know about anyone else, but I follow the teachings of that guy Jesus, not some fellow who retroactively changed everything later on because he felt himself divinely inspired.

But anywho...

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quote:
Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

It's up to God how we are designed, and how we're intended to operate. The only reason sin is in the world is because people choose to disobey the bible. God hasn't got explaining to do, we have.

But I've never met queer person who felt that they were queer for any reason other than being born that way. So either God or whatever is out there is making a whole lot of mistakes, or homosexuality isn't actually an abomination. (Ignoring the possibility that God is evil and sadistic.)

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Sorry for any typos in this message. I'm kind of rushing. I move back to campus tomorrow! And it's late, but i wanna reply here before i get back.

@Sweetness: Yeah, women pastors act in opposition to the bible. in Romans, it says, "women are to remain silent in the churches," (and the passage is concluded with a 'disclaimer' that states this is not a matter of opinion, but is a divine word from god). In context, this means women are neither 1: called to preach, or 2: given the gift of tongues.

@ sgtcampsalot: Wooah, slow down. Yes, i'm aware that paul never met jesus, and came along after the fact. But you've got a different history of his life, it seems, than i've learned.

Paul was against the christian church, brutally slaughtering christians, because he believed jesus was a liar, and christians were misled/a niusence. Then one day, God knocked him off his donkey as he was traveling, and blinded him. (Have you never heard this before?). Long story short, "Saul" had an encounter that caused a 180 change, and he became an advocate of jesus, doing more work for the church than any other apostle.

I don't know how else you could explain a change as dramatic as this, except to say that Paul was converted. A man who is humbled enough to sincerely change his life's mission to become like those whom he previously persecuted is not one who is somehow sabatoging, or perverting the Word.

I believe paul was a true apostle of God, and did much good for a floundering, dying, and weak community of believers. There's no doubt that paul's words do line up with Jesus'. i don't see where you'd think they didn't. Everything paul instructs in his letters is consistent with OT teaching, except for changes set forth by Jesus.

So, basically, paul spoke clearly and simply, through divine inspiration on things which were, indeed, consistent with the words of "that guy jesus." He simply cleared up some issues that people were having because they ignored jesus' teachings. Have you read paul's letters? They are to be included in God's word, as they were written from divine inspiration. That's not really up for debate, as far as i can tell. :/

@Ezra Pound: I was born predisposed to lying (true story! Razzer). If i'm raised in a culture which uplifts good liars, does that excuse me from deceiving people? Not if i have a bible/someone tells me that lying offends my maker. Not even if god touches my heart, showing me in my conscience that lying is wrong.

Gay people are not mistakes, but that doesn't make gay sex acceptable. We all have our battles and trials we face in life. For some, it's battling inappropriate lust (did i say 'for some'?), and for others, it's fighting laziness and procrastination. No matter what we're predisposed to from birth, God says he will not afflict us with more than we can bear.

In the end, no matter what you feel or what you want, god is ready and willing to take away your burden, and let your lusts be the lusts of your body, rather than of your heart.

Romans dedicates an entire chapter to the distinction between the hearts which god has predisposed to praise, worship, love, and grow, versus the body/flesh which is flawed. The flesh wants to sin, to turn from god and seeks instant gratification, not caring who is harmed in the process.

We're all flawed because of our limited flesh, and therefore all will inevitably sin (except Jesus, because he had the nature of god, as well). The only way to escape guilt for whatever wrong we do in our lives is to admit to god that we aren't perfect, and that we need his help and guidance.

I need to go to bed. I wish i was better at explaining these things; they're much clearer in my mind than i can say here, so i'm sure i'll have to revise some wording, but hopefully i've expressed the concepts i'm trying to get across.

Good night, all!

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Whoa! Emotional subject. I swore not to talk on this again. But I do have another summer song, so I guess I lied. Smiler To me the issue is bottom line logic. If you don't believe in god then just do what you want and forget about it. Done. If you believe in god and not the bible, then also do what you want because there isn't a guide to tell you what to do or not do. And maybe it's acceptable. But if you believe in god and that he inspired the bible then it's a different story. It does not mince words about homosexuality. It's not even vague about it. 'Men who lie with men' (and that's just one example). It says it's wrong right along with Adultery and murder. Seems harsh, and what can god be thinking? But it doesn't matter. If you follow it, that's what the bible says. Some say love and consensual adults and natural feelings('it's what I am') are what make something right, but that's just not true. Cheating on your mate usually involves two consensual adults, and the two people may even be in love. Doesn't make it right. The bible says it's wrong to have sex without being married, and that's two consensual adults, most of the time of the opposite sex. And THEY might even be in love. AND there not even hurting anyone. Bestialiaty is condemned in the bible, but that's people doing what they want. Not even really hurting the animal. GROSS I know, but there are tons of porn sites of it. AND PEOPLE WATCH IT AND LOVE IT!! We have free choice. We got it through evolution or by creation. If we got here by evolution and there is no god then by all means, people should be allowed to homosexual their face off. If he does exist and if he is behind what's written in the bible, then it's obvious what he says yes and no to. If people think gods law on it is old fashion or he must mean something different then what it seems to be, are just picking and choosing. Maybe stealing and adultery and murder are old fashion too then. Worshipping god is about sacrifice. Curbing what you want for his sake. If it's a stuggle, it's okay because you are trusting that he will make good on the promise of it all eventually being worth it.

A friend of mine married a girl and then fell in love with someone else later. Instead of following his heart, he stayed with his wife and kids. He sacrificed for the good of the big picture. To this day he still confides in me about how hard that was.

Men and women who go to war are willing to give up a lot and maybe even their life for a country. Not God. A COUNTRY!! If god exists, why would he deserve any less?

Nothing about this easy, especially for the one who has sexual feelings for the same sex. All this is easy when you're not a homosexual, and I'm not and you all probably think I'm talking out my butt, but that's the way I see it, and believe me, I have many struggles in life that could all be tons easier if I could just do what I want and do what comes natural.

I guess there is one more thing. If a person believes in god and the bible and just wants to exclude homosexuality from what the bible calls a sin and just follow everything else, they can do that too. That is the beauty of free will.

P.S. I'm not a very big Fantasia fan. Yuk! (singer not movie)

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quote:
God doesn't need to explain himself to me in order for me to obey him.

See this is what I don't understand about Religious people. Your completely comfortable just accepting claims with no reasoning behind them?

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Well see that's why discussion with a believer of religion is futile: Nothing can have more clout than the word of God, so they'll never be convinced... of anything. Despite the rationale, because God supersedes all. I know, I used to be one. (devoutly religious, not a God)

And in a rare, flippant apathy of how offensive I am, in the interest of, you know, facts...

http://www.EvilBible.com/

It's pretty much the problem with every prominent, organized religious text there is.

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quote:
Originally posted by Be like the water, people.:

Later, in verses 32 and 33, it says those who practice these things are worthy of death. "These things" refers to many sins, including gay sex, greed, envy, murder, and gossip. In other words, gay sex is a sin, just like any other "black and white" sin.

this is what i don't get. putting gay sex in the same league as murder, envy and greed? it's ridiculous. to me it seems like just someone who was contributing to this section of the bible wasn't fond of gay men having sex and wanted to spread this to the people cause he knew he had the power to do so and decided to exaggerate his homophobia so much and put it into the same league of sins such as murder and envy just to make it easier for the people to understand and to see where he is "coming from". and all of a sudden gay sex is an abomination cause the bible says so....oh wait no sorry it was just some priest who was homophobic enough and selfish enough to use his power to manipulate people.

this isn't god's words, this is some guy who wrote this particular verse in the bible words. god doesn't take sides.

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Btdubs, aside from the Bible being written by humans (claiming divine "inspiration" or not), the content was decided at the Council of Nicea, like, 1700 years ago. So aside from leaving out things they didn't like (abridging the word of God, which is even said in the bible is wrong, haha), the determinant of what kept a scripture in was whatever helped the Roman Empire maintain more control/social stability over the recently Christian-unified Empire. Not to mention the only reason Christianity "survived" so long is because Constantine used it to unite the Roman Empire, which had been embroiled in CENTURIES of turmoil, over colonial and religious issues. So, that's pretty much why we believe that particular religion today.

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not to mention that after the fall of the Roman Empire, bands of Christian "missionaries" traveled throughout Europe, their mission to convert all unbelievers...it is not as widely taught that they tended to burn villages to the ground when the people refused to give up their beliefs. by the time Europe emerged out of the "dark ages," opposition to the Church was practically eliminated. The Christian Church's history is a dark one, almost all of the time relying on fear and intimidation to keep its followers loyal.

i used to be extremely religious...but i eventually couldn't overlook history. in what other religion is it actually considered a taboo to discuss the ACTUAL history of the religion? sure, we all are taught about the jews and about jesus- but when do we ever get taught about the history of christianity itself?

from what we know of him, jesus himself seems to be a brilliant man who had some great insights about his religion (judaism) and sought to reform it. christianity nowadays is nothing but a poor, twisted reflection of his words passed down through 300 years of storytelling, then the council of nicea sorting through the good and the "inappropriate", then hundreds more years of monks copying the testaments by hand- and finally, to the hundreds of different translations of the text we have today...

why does it seem that these silly debates are always what drag me out of my shell on this forum, haha?

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